I used the word “manly” here as a shorthand for traditional masculinity, which I assumed was how it’s used colloquially; I don’t mean to assert that men are defined by traditional masculinity. My concern (more like blind superstition) is that a preference for many of those features (minus the misogyny) are biologically wired, and that having very few of these characteristics is inherently unattractive to most male-attracted people. It’s a fear that traditional masculinity is an inescapable standard and opting out leads to extreme difficulty in finding relationships. I asked this question because I want evidence that it’s safe to ignore gender roles entirely.

I think you should be grateful that you weren’t indoctrinated into being an abuser

Funnily enough, I kind of was. I was raised by far right extremists whose beliefs were so obviously evil and cruel that I sought outside information through the Internet as a teen. Most of what I saw there was right-leaning, but far less openly bloodthirsty, so it was more palatable to me to consume. But because of this, I deeply internalized right-wing social constructs, including most of the lies about women that are used to justify misogyny and patriarchy.

This programming socially stunted me. I hated myself because I didn’t live up to masculine standards and I was bullied for it at home and school. I wasn’t interested in women because I was indoctrinated into believing they were helpless damsels who wanted to be controlled, which, especially seeing my parents’ abusive relationship, felt grossly exploitative to me. I decided to just lay low and be polite, accepting that I was inferior due to my lack of machismo.

Even though I avoided others and had no confidence, I still had people, mostly women, who wanted to reach out and get to know me. They praised the softer traits that I tried to hide, and I found myself admiring many of their tough and protective personality traits. That deprogrammed me from gender norms, but only for platonic connections. Whether or not it was safe to ditch gender norms for romantic connections was an open question for me. So getting helpful feedback to this question has helped boost my confidence on that a lot!

My brother, unfortunately, never challenged his programming. He tells me that all women are the same, they all want to be ruled over by men, and LGBTQ+ women are straight people in denial. A few weeks ago, he literally killed his girlfriend’s cat for “misbehaving.” Instead of breaking up, they just casually replaced the cat with a different one. So yeah, the people I grew up around are so unhinged that it radicalized me into becoming normal.

Alas, that’s a tough find given that I’m over 6 feet tall, but the idea of a shorter woman making herself taller to kiss my forehead (by standing on a step or stool) somehow became even more appealing to me lol.

The man who moved me most in life was a sensitive, artistic, nervous, sweetheart of a man, whom I doted on, had him sit on my lap while he cried, cuddled and kissed him until he felt better, called him sugary names (lamb, darling, sweetheart), pet him often, and just absolutely loved on him.

The fact that he was emotionally open and outright with his feelings was what had attracted me to him in the first place. I am absolutely not a “dominant” person, but my desire to protect and love him in this was something no other man even allowed me the opportunity to do.

I feel dizzy because you literally described the moments I desire to a T. The doting, the sugary nicknames, having a non-domineering woman in an empowered position of loving protection… I have never read anything that so precisely and succinctly captures the exact ideas that I worried were just my own.

Your comment is exactly what I have been looking for—solid evidence that what I desire deep down exists in the real world and can be created again. If I am to trust the anecdotal evidence in this thread, then that finally settles it for me. Relationships just like the one I desire are out there. Women who are compatible with me are out there. I just need to get out and find one.

Thank you. This is one of the most reassuring things I have ever read.

Thanks for your support, and I’m glad I could help! I wish I could have read posts from unabashedly soft guys when I was still struggling with my masculinity, so I’m happy that I could help someone else in a similar way.

A little bit about my journey:

Female friends have fawned over me, calling me things like “cute,” “adorable,” and “sweetheart,” and expressing a desire to protect me.

These were the people who changed my life. I used to hide my personality out of shame, and they saw right through me. They called out my tenderness and basically said, “Hey, I love this side of you and I want to see more of it.” I couldn’t believe that people could wholeheartedly like something that I was told was my biggest weakness for my whole life.

But one of these friends explained to me that this “weakness” was nothing more than hateful messaging perpetuated by miserable people. She showed me just how much people around me, herself included, loved the very aspects of myself that I was insecure about. The evidence became so overwhelming that I finally accepted that I had been lied to for my entire life. My oppressive belief system had sustained fatal damage and finally began to collapse.

Those miserable people were my own family members. I was a victim of their abuse and indoctrination since childhood. These women were the heroes who kept me from going down the dark path my family had forged for me. I can’t even begin to describe just how much I was able to heal as a result of their actions. It has been utterly transformative for me. Their influence may be the best thing that has ever happened to me.

I hope that you’re able to find friends who affirm your identity, too. Friends who see aspects of you that you worry others won’t like and respond with love and encouragement. That was the most powerful thing for me.

I definitely have had women friends see me “as a little brother” and cared about me in a platonic way…

Lmao, I got called a little brother by a friend too!

She literally changed my life by helping me work through my past struggles with gender expectations and trust issues, so she was definitely a mentor figure for me at the time. The reason I can proudly share my desire to be a cute guy is directly thanks to her. She showed me that people truly liked me for who I was, even if I was a bit different. It turns out that what made me different was exactly what she liked about me the most. After all, the first thing she ever said to me was, “Oh my god, you’re adorable!”

I’m so happy that it worked out for you! Your story is relatable to me and gives me hope.

For me, it boils down to someone who’s nurturing and physically affectionate. I envision a relationship that’s cuddly and caring on both sides.

I probably could have phrased my original question better. I don’t care about being “sexually desirable” to as many women as possible; I only care about being desirable to enough people that finding someone to start a relationship with is a practical possibility. This post is about my lack of understanding of how sexual attraction fundamentally works. I’m essentially asking if sexual attraction is highly polarized—targeting either strong masculine or strong feminine presentations—with minimal reaction to more androgynous presentations.

Emotionally, yes, but financially, I don’t have the means to move out yet. I have health problems and disabilities that make it difficult to get a job, so I don’t yet know the timeline or feasibility of making it out on my own.

I’m not planning on dating until I have a better idea of what the future looks like, but I decided to ask about this stuff now just because the question has been bouncing around in the back of my head for a while and I figured that people here might have similar experiences.

I could definitely see them screwing it up and censoring too much. Like for example, if criticizing corporations or corporate greed was censored, I think there could be right-wing backlash too. Complaining about getting ripped off or screwed over is just a part of life, regardless of whether or not people ask deeper questions about the system.

My entire immediate family is far-right, which, aside from being terrifying, allows me to get an idea of how some of these people think. It turns out, they DO have some anti-corporate sentiment, but only for those who fall outside of the perceived right-wing populist umbrella. Apparently, only those billionaires are the evil greedy ones and theirs are the good ones. Nonetheless, that could be a potential hazard for corporations who find themselves on the wrong side of popular support, where they are no longer protected by an anti-establishment perception.

Hey, I’ve seen you around before.

Perhaps it’s a bit nosy of me, and of course I don’t fully know what you’re going through, but I know there’s a real person on the other side suffering, and that’s the only thing that matters to me.

So I wanted to say that I’m thinking about you and I care about you. You have intrinsic worth no matter what anyone says. Even if you can’t find anyone to talk to in real life. Even if you get a bazillion downvotes and hateful comments on the Internet. It doesn’t change that fact one bit.

I remember years ago when I was in a really painful headspace, I would project my internal cynicism and attract negative attention on purpose in order to make other people affirm my self-hatred and belief that I deserved to suffer.

But I was hyperfocused on the negativity. I ignored the caring people who were concerned about me because it didn’t support my internal narrative that everyone hated me and therefore I should hate myself too. I found comfort in hopelessness because it meant that I didn’t have to be vulnerable anymore. I told myself that a bad outcome was guaranteed and therefore it’s never worth opening up or reaching out.

Most people who feel for you won’t speak up. That’s one of the reasons I believed nobody cared about me: I couldn’t see the evidence. People have to step up and be part of the evidence, so I might as well be one of them. Real life evidence is worth a lot more than Internet comments, but if my words have even a chance of helping you in some way, then writing this all out was completely worth it.

The single most healing moment in my life is when someone in real life offered to be that person for me, and she told me all of the things that she genuinely liked about me. I was an emotional wreck; I avoided talking to anyone, was woefully insecure, and felt like nobody could ever like me. She knew all of these things and chose to talk to me anyway. Her compliments canceled out all of the insults and rejections I had ever received and made me confident in myself for the first time. I have hope you can meet someone like that too. Mine showed up when I least expected it!

So maybe it’s none of my business, and maybe many of the things I said don’t apply to your situation, but I want to make it absolutely clear that, whoever you are, I care about you, and many other people do too. You deserve love, healing, and support. And I truly wish the best for you.

Hugs~

Codswallop, dingus… these are abstract terms. You cannot argue with them. They cannot hate you.

Disagreements on the Internet happen when you argue with people (not abstractions).

(Sorry, I couldn’t resist)

Recently I’ve been getting into making digital art and reading books. Though I haven’t done much of either yet. These are new hobbies that I just discovered my enjoyment of and I’m just getting into them for the first time.

The closest I had to this actually was my old workplace, but power dynamics, workplace stress, and a lack of shared purpose were my biggest problems.

Having your behavior controlled by management, friendly coworkers who suddenly become cold-hearted backstabbers if they find out they can gain financially from it, etc

Stressful days where we were overworked also brought out the worst in everyone, including me at the time, which was also not fun…

Depending on the job, there could also just be a lot of people who don’t want to be there other than for the money, and in those cases, there isn’t really a uniting greater purpose that everyone believes in.

I think it might work for some people, but the conditions have to be right. For me personally, the corrosive and anti-social influence of money makes me wary of really trusting or connecting with people on a genuine level in work environments.

Well then, I guess if I were to rephrase the question, I’d ask:

Where are some places or contexts where you can find a group of 5-30 people who meet regularly, generally feel connected to one another, and won’t spend the whole time staring at their phones?

Nah, they just haven’t realized that they actually CAN if they’re willing to band together and fight anyone who tries to stop them

I just didn’t have to deal with homophobes before middle school lol

Nobody can stop your cuddle party if you’ve got the bigger army >:3

Rural Ohio… I don’t recommend it

The last day I hugged my best friend in elementary school, because it was the final time two male friends could openly love one another without being questioned or ostracized… sigh.

EDIT: The last time in the region I grew up in, which seems to be more on the conservative hellhole side of things

deleted by creator

deleted by creator

deleted by creator

deleted by creator