🎉 Great news! Glad we can access past threads.

This episode has made it clear Lemmy software needs to improve in several ways to be resiliant to the problem. The possible #LemmyBug/enhancements:

① the fix was apparently not just flipping a switch— it required hacking the db, correct? Shouldn’t admins have a simple undelete button?

② what if a rogue admin had deleted the community, and perhaps even destroyed the db? In principle it should be possible to rebuild the community on a different node using data from all nodes that have data. Sometimes a whole node goes down. The plug gets pulled when funds run out. We are hosed when that happens.

③ each user’s subscriptions panel should not simply quietly cease to list the deleted community. The community name should remain and have indicators to signal issues (e.g. 💀, ⚠).

④ msgs users write are stored in their profile & responses are stored in their inbox. But this is poor organization on its own. It only serves to quickly see new msgs/reactions, but users are overly dependent on the server’s representation of the community to show threads in a coherent way. Clients should have that capability too. I should be able to click “context” on any msg and the client should be able to show me a sequence of msgs regardless of the state of the server host.

Correction-- I was just able to trace back to see how I figured out what the community address was. When I mouse-over “deleted@lemmy.world” on an old post of my own to the deleted community (from my profile), the underlying link is: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/homeimprovement@lemmy.world. So I think it’s only because I am not on lemmy.world myself that this was revealed. I suspect when users are on the same instance where the deletion happened, the original name may not appear. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Going forward is not the issue since we have !homeimprovement@disflux.org. The problem is recovering the data that was lost. Where is the backup data?

yeah it was tricky because the community name was overwritten with “deleted@lemmy.world”. I was only able to rediscover what the original community address was by some strange anomaly of like an autocomplete in a search field or something. The existence of the community is scrubbed even on lemmyverse.net.

(edit) And my subscription was quietly removed. What should have happened is the subscription link in my subscription list should have remained as text (not as a hyperlink). It should have gotten a strikethrough with a “💀” next to it. That’s another #LemmyBug for the pile.

Ah, well if the front page is 80kb that might explain it. So apparently there’s just some really heavy text especially if each subsequent page is anywhere near 80kb.

thanks for the tip. Yes I can see that there is an attempt to load images but there is a little prohibited icon. So I’m not sure what that really means. If images are disabled in the browser settings, then I think there should not even be an attempt to fetch them. I wonder if javascript is bypassing the config and fetching the image, but then the browser is simply blocking them from display.

If the message is edited for typos/grammatical errors, then there’s really no need for a notification as the message displays the posted time in italics (e.g., ✏ 9 hours ago).

I’m not sure why the relevance of the posted time in this scenario, but indeed I agree simply that typos need not generate an update notice, in principle.

If the message is so reworked as to say something else, “Bob” (your example) should do the right thing and post a new, separate reply to “Alice” in the same thread, donchathink?

This requires Bob to care whether Alice gets the update. Bob might care more about the aesthetics, readability, and the risk that misinfo could be taken out of context if not corrected in the very same msg where the misinfo occurred. If I discover something I posted contained some misinfo, my top concern is propagation of the misinfo. If I post a reply below it saying “actually, i was wrong, … etc”, there are readers who would stop reading just short of the correction msg. Someone could also screenshot the misinfo & either deliberately or accidentally omit Bob’s correction. So it’s only sensible to correct misinfo directly where it occurred.

I get what you’re saying though, that there should be some real integrity toward post/reply history, like diff maybe.

It would be interesting to see exactly what Mastodon does… whether it has an algorithm that tries to separate typos/grammer from more substantive edits. I don’t frequently get notices on Mastodon when someone updates a status that mentions me, so I somewhat suspect it’s only for significant edits.

(update) one simple approach would be to detect when a strikethrough is added. Though it wouldn’t catch all cases.

So let me get this straight… Bob does something no one else does

Straight away you don’t have it straight. Edits happen. The mere possibility of edits in fact encourages authors to produce ½-baked drafts in the 1st place knowing that they can always edit.

edit messages on somewhere no one else goes, adding significant content to something no one sees

Not sure what drives this logic. If no one goes there, the post/comment is unlikely to happen in the 1st place. And with no interaction in the thread, refinements are even less likely. If you don’t have at least two people participating in a thread, there are no notifications to speak of.

and then Bob wants to spam the world about the update with notification?

Bob wants to take no action at all and let a smart system handle notifications as needed. So your attempt to “get this straight” got everything crooked. Furthermore, your proposed solution is moreso aligned with Bob pushing “spam”, as Bob’s new & separate msg forces a notification as the platform has no way of distinguishing an update from a new msg. Thus it would be treated like a new msg and a notice would be sent.

Also, in this context, this wouldn’t be a bug, but rather a feature request

One man’s bug is another man’s feature. Luckily bugs and feature requests are handled in the same venue so it’s a red herring.

a feature that no one is asking for

Certainly not true anymore.

and doesn’t make the software better

One man’s bug is another man’s feature.

except to those that doesn’t follow social norms yet still demands to get into others’ inboxes.

You’ve misunderstood where the demand is coming from. It’s not the author; it’s the recipient. Someone posted a useful reply to Alice, Alice read it, marked it as read, & then Bob made a useful update. Alice did not receive the notice of the update. This “demand” comes from the recipient (Alice), not Bob the author. The update was for the recipient’s benefit not the author’s. It’s purely incidental that Alice discovered that an update happened because #Lemmy was not smart enough to notify me of the update (unlike Mastodon which is quite a bit more mature).

Instead, the appropriate behaviour is to not allow Bob to make edits after sometime (which many softwares have such feature for)

That’d be fair enough, but it would not have helped in this case where the edit happened the same day.

and/or make edit logs visible (also a common feature)

You’re imposing too much manual labor on humans. Machines are here to work for us not the other way around.

such that people who doesn’t follow expected norms

The norms adapt to the software. When the software does an extra service for people, they abandon norms that attempt to compensate for a feature poor system. And rightly so.

Heh… the funny irony here is that you actually missed my update to the OP, which says:

“For comparison, note that Mastodon (at least some versions) notify you upon edits of msgs that you were previously notified on.”

That’s of course a different scenario since crossposts don’t update (which could be a separate interesting discussion). But funny nonetheless because you missed an update while saying that tools should not be improved in favor of social / cultural change. I guess you should have thought to read the OP and compare it for changes (the social solution) :)

that’s kind of how things have been since pretty much early 2000s if not earlier.

We can dispense any sort of “conventional wisdom” in the course of moving forward with improvements.

Very specifically the comment that inspired my post was someone posting misinformation, then going back and adding a s̶t̶r̶i̶k̶e̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ and highlighting their correction in red text. No correction would be more readable than that. The problem with your proposal is that misinformation is left there persistently misinforming. That can then be taken out of context (e.g. someone screensnaps the misinfo & uses it against the author). There’s also the problem that readers often do not read a whole thread top to bottom. This is proven by the number of votes (up or down), which appear in high numbers on high comments and drop dramatically after ~3 or so replies. You might argue that the post can be deleted, but that then creates a problem of responses not having context. And it creates confusion as people wonder “didn’t person X say Y?”

Are you sure it’s not just hiding the images but still loading them for layout purposes?

No, in fact this is my concern. It’s hard to know considering javascript is in the mix.

Is this mobile Firefox or desktop Firefox?

I should have been more clear-- it’s actually Tor Browser on the desktop. I said firefox to simplify, but then it occurred to me it could be relevant. Although I think the tor overhead is negligible.

I meant to say if you vote on the /comment/ you are replying to… which is apparently captured in a github bug report already.

Your timeline is backwards. The account compromise was July 10; the DoS attack came after that (July 15th). There is also no chatter of any kind about any attacks prior to July 10th.

I’d just like to know what your solution to DDOS and other bad actors is if it’s not cloudflare.

First of all DDoS from Tor is rarely successful because the Tor network itself does not have the bandwidth with so few exit nodes. But if nonetheless you have an attack from Tor you stand up an onion host and forward all Tor traffic from the clearnet site to the onion site. Then regardless of where the attack is coming from, on the clearnet side there are various tar-pitting techniques to use on high-volume suspect traffic. You can also stand up a few VPS servers and load balance them, similar to what Cloudflare does without selling everyone else’s soul to the US tech giant devil.

on something cloudflare already does extremely well.

CF does the job very poorly. The problem is you’re discounting availability to all users as a criteria. You might say #SpamHaus solves the spam problem “very well” if you neglect the fact that no one can any longer run their own home server on a residential IP and that it’s okay for mail to traverse the likes of Google & MS. A good anti-spam tool detects the spam without falsely shit-canning ham. This is why SpamHaus and Cloudflare do a poor job: they marginalize whole communities and treat their ham as spam.

A walled garden means there’s actual barriers to entry. Cloudflare isn’t a barrier to entry unless you’re planning to attack an instance

Yes to your first statement. Your 2nd statement is nonsense. The pic on the OP proves I hit a barrier to entry without “planning an attack”

or are using something like ToR

Tor users are only one legit community that Cloudflare marginalizes. People in impoverished areas have to use cheap ISPs who issue CGNAT IP addresses, which CF is also hostile toward. CF is also bot-hostile, which includes hostility toward beneficial bots as well as non-bots who appear as bots to CF’s crude detection (e.g. text browsers).

If that’s true then why are there reports of the attack bringing them down on July 15th?

centralizes those instances and adds a centralized point of failure.

Single point of failure just scratches the surface. It’s also a single point of access control, and a single point of surveillance.

All your lemmy interactions are mediated by your instance (dbzer0). If you’re having a problem with your notifications, or loading posts, or responding to content that’s a problem with your client and your instance. Full stop.

Full stop-- Not in the slightest. If that were true there would be no reason for web-facing publication by lemmy world to logged-out users. Having local copies of lemmy world content is an interaction convenience (and necessary for some ops) but it does not encapsulate the full UX. The discussion is openly visible to different extents from different platforms and angles. This is purposeful. And it’s important. It’s how you validate that you’re not in a malicious or oppressive bubble. You step outside of your instance to see what others see.

Nothing about decentralization says that all instances are required to allow YOU to access their instance. The opposite really, each instance is entitled to run however they want. The fact that you can still view and interact with posts (via your instance) says that decentralization and federation are actually working.

You’re conflating power with ethics. Sure, fedi nodes have power to pawn users to tech giants & push ads, sell data to Google & Facebook, surreptitiously share all traffic with Cloudflare Inc. without so much as even telling their users that their usernames, passwords, and DMs are visible to CF, etc. The fedi is designed to allow this. That does mean it’s just to do so. Evil nodes can and should be called out, exposed, and outcast, which the fedi is also designed to accommodate.

If you’re concerned about centralization and walled gardens you should be upset about the disproportionate number of users and communities that exist on lemmy.world.

I am. And I pointed this out already in another post in this thread. I deliberately join small instances.

You are true decentralization, those communities should be distributed across the fediverse rather than being at the whims of one instances admins.

Yes, but this only scratches the surface. Putting huge numbers of users behind Cloudflare on a single giant node is the most antithetical action a fedi node can do – and this is what Lemmy World has done.

It’s complicated. I first used the chain link which is purely internal. This expands the msg and offers the “show context” option which gives nothing (due to the bug). Then I try the fedi icon and nothing happens at all… no expansion or anything. But I can see that the button is sensitive because it flashed as I clicked it. So then I forcefully copied that external link into a new tab in Tor Browser and it just shoots a blank. No text at all. Then I copied that same Lemmy World link into ungoogled chromium running over tor, which shows #LemmyWorld’s blockade I screencapped.

Note that ungoogled chromium has experimental value and reveals the problem (Cloudflare), but all versions of #Lemmy I have encountered have always been wholly broken in ungoogled chromium. Lemmy forces the use of Firefox-based browsers (and last time i checked Lemmy is quite useless in text browsers as well).

I am not sure if I can follow you but this bug affects both “show context” and “show parent” button on broken instances.

There is a chain link icon and a fedi icon, both of which have “show context” as mouseover text. The difference is that the chain link shows the local copy, and the fedi icon links to the source node (in the case of your msg, feddit.de). Being able to view it on the originating node also means using the web client of that other node.

Ah, thanks for the info. But note that there are two “show context” buttons. In principle, if I am on a broken version I should be able to visit the parent on the originating node & possibly side-step the bug. But in this case the other node blocks me (Cloudflare).

Also note that I would still like a way to block CF instances. I’m in the #threadiverse to participate in the free world & prefer not to feed centralized walled gardens from which I am a refugee. Oppressors should not be able to thrive in the #fedi.

#LemmyWorld is centralized in 2 ways:

• Cloudflare
• disproportionate user population

It’s restricted access. See the screenshot on the OP.

BTW, Cloudflare is also #centralized, thus defeating the #decentralized purpose of the #threadiverse.

(edit) What’s a “walled garden” to you, if not restricted access?

Maybe you misunderstand the enforcement part of the GDPR. It’s not made for you to get personal enforcement out of it.

You obviously have not read article 77. This article entitles individuals to report GDPR violations to a DPA for enforcement. Article 77 does not distinguish violations against an individual (which I suppose is what you mean by “personal enforcement”) and violations against many. Some of the violations I have reported can only be construed as violations against the general public. E.g. an org fails to designate a DPO.

The problem is there is nothing to enforce article 77 itself. When a DPA neglects to act on an article 77 report, there is no recourse. There is only a provision that allows lawsuits against the GDPR violators. But then when someone did that, and then claimed legal costs, an Italian court decided for everyone in a precedence-setting case that legal costs are not recoverable. Which essentially neuters the court action remedy. So we have an unenforced article 77 and a costly & impractical direct action option.

It works on the basis of multiple infractions being recorded and then escalating the agencies response level.

It’s not even doing that much, in some cases. The report has to get past the front desk secretary and be submitted into the litigation chamber before it’s even considered as something that would indicate a trend. If it doesn’t get past the secretary it does nothing whatsoever. Some of my reports were flippantly rejected by a pre-screening secretary for bogus reasons (e.g. “your complaint is ‘contractual in nature’” when in fact there is no contractual agreement, apart from the fact that the existence of a contract does not nullify the GDPR anyway).

I work with many companies as IT consultant and I can assure you, that they all FEAR the GDPR

So you’re only seeing the commercial response. Gov agencies & NGOs are also subject to the GDPR, which is where you see the most recklessness (likely due to the lack of penalty). On the commercial side banks also don’t give much of a shit about the GDPR because when they violate it there’s a shit ton of banking regs they point to and the DPAs are afraid to act against banks because of the messy entanglement of AML/KYC laws that essentially push #banks to violate the GDPR.

Enforcement of GDPR does happen and you can review every enforcement on a public website called enforcement tracker.

Indeed I’ve browsed through the enforcement tracker. It’s a good prop for making the public believe that the #GDPR is being well enforced. They are cherry-picking cases to enforce to convince the public that something is being done, but people who actually submit reports know better. We see the reports that are clearly going unenforced.

I have also personally requested information about me and my family through the rights bestowed by the GDPR

I have had article 15 access requests denied which I then reported to the DPA, who opened a case but just sat on it. For years, so far.

(edit) By the way, I suggest you leave Lemmy·world for a different instance. If you care about privacy at all, you don’t use Cloudflare nodes. I cannot even see the msg I wrote (which you replied to) because #lemmyWorld blocks me (which I give some detail here: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/1435972). I had to reply to you based purely on your msg without context.