Again, while I would like to be hopeful… I really can’t express enough how much I genuinely think they would absolutely push the button. I think a lot of these people are so wrapped up in their ideology (look how Trump is just straight up breaking shit he doesn’t understand. Sometimes even accidentally doing good stuff) and they’re so lost in some fantasy world resulting from like 60 straight years of neoliberal and libertarian jerkoff sessions that they are detached enough and/or deranged enough to do it. Like true radical thought processes of “No, I’d rather be dead than…” insert whatever situation is happening or they imagine is happening. Like if China is just steamrolling every single US Navy vessel within 1000km of China’s shores (which, btw, I personally think is justified. The US would certainly never tolerate the opposite. A Chinese aircraft carrier just setting up anchor 1000km from Hawaii)… I dunno. Maybe the US takes that. That’s the one situation I could see restraint happening.

Any sort of perceived “encroachment” on US territory becomes much more certain in my mind. The “losing abroad” situation also relies on their mindset which, if you listen to them, is basically “Wow, how could China dare have planes and ships in the South CHINA Sea?!”

If their actions follow their ideology and statements… they really do see China having sovereignty and expressing it in much (MUCH) less overt ways than the US does as an affront to the US. I can’t read their minds, but their words certainly indicate that anything China does feels like an existential threat to them and must be responded to.

Unfortunately I see this sentiment escalating and not deescalating. The US media diet is just “Bad things because China china china Russia! China china china cuba russia China Venezuela Iran china china china” 24/7 non stop. The politicians who you’d think would know that the media is bullshit and only exists to help them do evil shit would realize like “Ok, yeah. I want to fuck China over, but… we can’t do this thing.” and yet, I don’t think many of them realize it. They eat the propaganda and gobble it down the same as normal Americans with no political power. Everyone in charge here is a legitimate fucking moron. And we’re only slated to get dumber (less educated)…

I assume you meant win not when

While we can all hope that is the case… I think you misunderstand what nukes are there for. In the US’ case anyway.

There’s no real strategy to the nukes… it’s just “attack us and we’re losing? Nuke. So don’t even think about it.” That’s the entire concept of mutually assured destruction. Nuclear armed nations with properly hardened nukes (which the US absolutely has and China, I assume, has equivalent nukes. In the ground, under the sea, on stand by for planes as well) all exist under the constant implicit and also explicit threat of what I wrote above. They are called deterrence missiles in the US. Deterrence against other nuclear armed nations even thinking about a first strike nuke or invasion.

I suppose the only “what if” is “what if the US loses horribly abroad. But the mainland isn’t attacked by nukes (or something else) and there is no invasion?” Maybe that’s what you meant?

It’s still plausible to me that the US president smashes that button. We aren’t exactly known for having sane, rational people in that position. But that’s about the only scenario I can see direct US/China confrontation without nuclear exchange. If the US fucks around with, I dunno, Taiwan and immediately China shuts it down. Maybe the US takes the L. Still, over the long term if such a conflict begins… nuclear exchange seems inevitable. From the US side starting it due to losing.

I remain doubtful on that front considering the result of forcing a war with China… doesn’t really matter because we’re just all dead then. Like the entire world.

Yeah, “proxy wars” and such. China isn’t taking that bait though. The US keeps whining on about Taiwan, but I see zero evidence of an “aggressive, forced” takeover of the island. (And yes, takeover is loosely used there. If the idea of states and sovereignty is “real” then China “invading Taiwan” is impossible. Yes, I understand… everyone knows what I mean. “Liberals in the walls” moment)

Pretty sure OP knows that. The point is how burger-brained it is that everything in the US is like this to some degree or another. In a proper society no serious newspaper would be reporting this in a serious way. They would just cite relevant governmental agency data and releases.

Like many things that are wrong with borger-land it’s these seemingly innocuous reports or statements that add up to reflect serious underlying issues. In this case, over reliance on private institutions versus appropriate, existing public institutions. Also it seems to indicate mistrust in the “simple facts” that even agencies like FEMA or NOAA get right (for the most part). Some section of society, growing it seems, are incapable of discerning the facts put out by government agencies vs the bullshit that government agencies put out. For example, NOAA is probably not bullshitting people, while anything coming from the DoD regarding anything foreign affairs related, is 99% bullshit or bullshit-adjacent. People with a teenager’s critical thinking capacity should be able to pick apart the daily lies but also see the truths reported by other agencies.

Of course this mistrust in government and replacing it with private institutions has been the neoliberal agenda for over 40 years. The more all Americans distrust the government as a whole, the more the agenda is succeeding. Rejection of anything good or required being done by the state has become political dogma to basically the entire populace at this point. Decades of Carter “We have to accept our shitty fate!” and Raegan “The government is bad!” going effectively uncontested by both parties…

The Waffle House Index is just one comical fruit on that shitty project.

I’m just envisioning Trump coming over to Biden’s makeup/prep room, whatever they get, before the debate to say good luck in private and just let him know it’s nothing personal between them. While they’re chatting Biden is getting layers upon layers of makeup caked on and Trump is just nervously inching closer and closer to Joe’s water bottle with a tiny bottle of visine eye drops. Just enough to fuck him up and counteract the speedball.

Jesus Christ

This was a full dose of lib-virus

Glad I got my anti-lib vaccine, although I did feel a tinge of something before the burnt toast smell became overwhelming, my vision went red, and I just heard “red sun in the sky” in my head

People who parrot the “right to exist” line are usually either so far gone down the propaganda pipeline that you alone will not be moving them on the issue or, worse, they’re a full blown ideologically driven Zionist cynically trying to equate their fascist pet project with the existence of humans inside and outside of Israel.

And honestly before Oct last year I think a lot of westerners, especially Americans, could plausibly fall under the former. Maybe they saw pictures or heard a news story from Israel’s various criminal murder campaigns, looked into it just a tiny bit, and immediately got smacked with the “wow! Seems like you don’t think Israel has a right to defend itself or exist!” And a lot of well meaning liberals will throw their hands up and go “no no no I’m sorry! I didn’t know!” and never talk about it again due to the way Zionism has fairly successfully tied Israel to Jews as a people (which is antisemitic as fuck) and so Israel is regarded as “not your business” if you aren’t Jewish. Your acceptable choices are ignoring/avoiding it or being pro-Israel… nothing else.

But since October, where there was very little excuse before, there is NO excuse now to claim ignorance. As much as I try to attribute people’s actions to ignorance rather than bad intent, I can’t do so anymore on this issue. I simply refuse to accept anyone who can parrot the right to exist BS doesn’t know exactly what Israel has been doing for 75 years and especially the last 20 or so and especially especially the last 9 months. We all see the videos/pics, everyone who didn’t know before knows now at least a general REAL history of how Israel came to be, so if they’re falling back on right to exist it’s for a specific reason. They’re trying to do what the intent of that phrase is which is to sort of humanize the state of Israel, to make it a person basically, and that “person” represents all Jews in the world. If you wish to see that state dismantled then you’re explicitly saying you want Jews to not exist. Obviously this is all antisemitic (the biggest irony in all this) as fuck and basically just early 1900s nationalistic insanity that, yes, you’d be hearing from Nazis or perhaps the fucking KKK.

So, no matter what you say or do, you aren’t pushing those people who are fully committed to equating a nation state with a group of people. To them you might as well just be saying “Jews don’t have a right to exist.” They’re so far down in their racist dark places that many of them probably do believe this to a large extent, or they’re just totally cynical right wing pieces of shit who revel in being able to murder people AND being able to silence you with false claims of antisemitism. Either way, like I said, you won’t be moving them.

The only thing that can probably move them is making it fully untenable to be a Zionist. It needs to have the same stigma as openly calling yourself a Nazi or openly supporting Rhodesia. It used to be very popular to support Rhodesia amongst far right wing types. Ask people under 30 or maybe even 35 what Rhodesia was now days and you’ll get a lot of “huh? Never heard of it” responses. Just gotta keep pushing to cut off aid to Israel, keep pressuring private industry/unis to divest, and finally to enact sanctions and remove all political protections at the UN. Once Zionists are totally isolated from the world it’ll all crumble and you’ll never hear another dumbass say that right to exist line.

That’s where I’m at with that stupid phrase. Don’t debate them, just force them to stfu. It will take a lot more time and effort, but they’re losing, they know they’re losing, and I dunno. Fuck their dumb little racist slogans in the end.

Something which never sinks in with liberals (because it might bust their brains, I dunno) is “terrorist” just means “doesn’t align with state interests.” I would also add “and usually non-state actors” but Bibi has been calling Iran a “terror state” so I guess we’re scrapping the state actor part and just going with “they do things opposed to us dominating everything- that’s terrorism!” 2003 all over again.

I have noticed libs jumping over “unpatriotic” as was the claim in 2003ish towards anti war protesters and landing directly on calling them pro-Hamas and pro-terrorist which is just a zero-mask call for state violence on protestors (and they got their wish). I don’t think the more soft-hearted, mostly “well-meaning” liberals have let it sink in yet that if you call someone terrorist you aren’t only being hyperbolic and stupid, you are saying “this person is an enemy of the state and appropriate force must be used to eliminate them… immediately.” That’s just what it means, I’m sorry. They are quite literally saying “kill this guy!” Why? “For being an anti-genocide terrorist!”

I call them liberals so much and so instinctively at this point that I legitimately get confused when they get all pissy. We should keep forcing it into common American understanding though.

The term “conservative” as it’s popularly used 1) kinda means nothing (which is perfect for them) so 2) is an ever changing term.

A conservative in 1970 US politics vs now are very different in their approach and thinking… obviously some stuff remains unchanged, but in the 1960s/70s you could still just be like a Strom Thurmond KKK guy openly denouncing integration and rights for black people while serving in the senate until you’re 100 goddamn years old… literally. Richard Nixon signed the EPA into law which today would be off the table even for Obama, I imagine. It would never get to his desk whatever his personal philosophy would be.

So their ideas and way of speaking changes since their only true ideology is something boiled down to “support ‘free markets’” or allow capitalists to exploit labor maximumly and use any wedge issues which are beneficial along the way such as racism, abortion, etc. Maintain US hegemonic dominance around the world through soft and hard power, as required, in service to capital.

On the other hand, ask a hardcore fascist/Nazi or even KKK guy their thoughts in 1960 or today and it’s “we want a separate nation only available for white people…” blah blah blah, all the shit. Their ideology remains the same as always. They believe in racial supremacy of white people, however they break that down, and they want a “pure land” for their chosen race. The more politically savvy ones will swap words around for plausible deniability, but the core ideology is basically the same in the end. They hate communists, they hate non-whites, especially being forced to live around and respect them as humans, they blame all societal ills on non-white minorities and/or non-cis, straight minorities. Same old tale.

On the left, if you filter out the liberals LARPing (gotta similarly filter the more libbed up conservatives from their Nazi compatriots as well), you’ll hear the same arguments that communist-types have had since the 1960s, since the 1920s, and further back. Because it’s rooted in an ideology, so specific arguments of the time period change maybe, wording might change, but fundamentals like labor being the source of all value and thus capitalists having no right to the value created by others… remains core and unchanged.

[this isn’t a “give it to the Nazis for ideological purity” argument, btw, to the liberals in my walls. It’s about political terminology and ties to strongly held ideology which American “liberals” and “conservatives” both share in common. Just about the only thing Nazis can ever coherently express is their hatred for non-white people. Beyond that, good fucking luck finding any sense in their statements and beliefs]

Correction:

One is a boring, sleepy genocidal geriatric

The other is an entertaining genocidal geriatric

Your move, America!

Also I like how libs spend their time downvoting memes here. You guys could just go read your hug box “Joe is good!” memes on the entirety of reddit, twitter, or lemmy minus basically two instances.

If I put the cheese out too obviously the mouse will know what I am doing

But if I eat some cheese in the corner and, “oppsie” drop a small piece in a sticky trap area… I might just awaken to an angry mouse chirping at me.

You still haven’t given an example of wtf you’re talking about.

Who the fuck are these mysterious (assumedly) pro-Stalin, pro-USSR, etc. “tankies” who ALSO are pro-USA/pro-capitalism?

Just give a name! Find a person in history or today and type their name into your text box and hit send. Is this asking a lot?

If they use it to mean “person who doesn’t get bogged down in stupid details over the USSR (or China) just for the sake of hating a communist country” then fine. I don’t care. It just gets old seeing it used as “person left of me, which means they’re bad” by the most historically illiterate motherfuckers on the planet. The kind of fuckers who say they want socialism and then cry every time someone protests in a street. Do you see what I mean? It’s not the word, I don’t care in the end. I get like a death threat per day from random Nazis who (ironically) call me antisemitic for criticizing Israel. I’ll take tankie over that, given the choice. But it’s worth acknowledging the people calling me or us or whoever “tankie” are absolutely just the dumbest fuckers online. That’s all.

Bro, wtf is a tankie if not a communist? You’re just out here making up bullshit. I want a definition!

I’ve been led to believe “tankie” was referring to fans of the USSR, which, I suppose if you wanna be annoying, one could argue “weren’t communists.” But you didn’t do that. You didn’t say “Stalin betrayed Marxist Leninism” or whatever. I could assume that’s what you meant, but I’d rather read it from you.

It’s starting to feel like, to me, that tankie just means “someone more left than me, and that makes me angry!” Because I can say who isn’t calling people tankies. That would be Marxists of whatever variety. I can also say who does seem to be using that word all the time… socdems, liberals, sometimes outright fascists. It definitely seems to be the bludgeon of liberals who fancy themselves to be socialists though. I’m going to include most leftist anarchists under the umbrella of liberal because that’s just how I roll. Like a big ol’ tank.

Anti-communism has always been a reaction to communism (leftist movements broadly).

Anyone who unironically uses the word tankie… ever… is immediately written off in my book. They’re terminally online and have never read anything, never thought about anything seriously, they’re useful idiots for fascists at best and, a lot of times, just fascists.

I feel like they think I’m being hyperbolic or forcing a false dichotomy, but, no, if you self-label as anti-communist that’s basically the same as modern day “all lives matter” people which was a right wing, reactionary, movement against the movement for justice for black people in the US. There is a movement which is objectively on the side of people, justice, etc. and there is a reaction to that movement. Just how it goes. If you identify on the reactionary side… well, there you go. Not sure why this is so complicated for the “bBUT TANKIES” dipshits.

Not trying to read too much into this if it’s a joke, etc.

But

Marx was stating as an absolute statement of what he viewed as fact (and seems to be correct over a long enough timeline) that capitalism will fail due to contradictions

The Che quote is the less philosophical, more “in the shit” statement. Much like Lenin before him, these guys understood that the contradictions of capitalism lead inevitably, as Marx was getting at, to failures and collapses and it’s at those moments that revolutionaries spring up and rile their base of support within the labor force of the country. Until that moment of crisis things were bad, but tolerable. During the crisis, conditions are intolerable and people are willing to do anything, including overthrowing the government/capitalist class and possibly dying for that cause. Because the alternative is death anyway. Or a living death.

On a side note, this is why there will never be (for any foreseeable future) a socialist revolution in the US. 1) material conditions are broadly “good” (although they are worsening) 2) there is effectively no leftist political movement in the US. There are a few thousand people who are genuinely anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist and want a revolution, but that might as well be zero in a country this size. Not anything new or crazy to point out that as people’s conditions worsen further they will turn towards more and more radical leftist ideas or right wing ideas. Considering the racist undercurrents of the US and lack of any desire for any international cooperation amongst workers mixed with the (unfortunately extremely effective) FBI/CIA ops against US leftists in the past, there’s only really one path that we’re likely to head down…

I’m not so hopeful that this current eruption of visible violence (to the western world) will result in a free Palestine, although I do reserve a naive glimmer of hope for all good things somewhere in my mind. Two things I hope people everywhere walk away with are the humanization of Palestinians as worthy of life and being denied it by Israel and erasing the concept of “complicated” from this whole situation. Everyone who is paying attention sees an uncomplicated situation where one side subjugates another and the subjugated ones fought back and are now being collectively massacred as a result. Everyone can see the inherent injustice in such actions even within the “starting on Oct 7” context. Once people uncomplicate things the solution becomes clear.

Not unlike a materialist view of the world, once you strip away the bullshit film smeared on by neoliberals to mystify everything, it all becomes so simple that you wonder how you never saw it before. And you wonder how it is that all those around you can’t also see it.

That’s my super paraphrased, shitty, condensed Marx summary.

All the “it’s complicated” people just use that framing to either obfuscate the truth from you/others or to cope within themselves. Whether it’s economics or the conflict in Palestine, it’s rarely ever complicated at the core. I hope people learn to kneejerk reject that framing. That means the next step to solving things is really close.

“We should challenge students in these schools. We have this notion that somehow if you’re poor, you cannot do it. Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”

I think at a certain point you have to just assume he’s accidentally saying his real thoughts.

He also praised men like Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd. He gave the eulogy at Thurmond’s funeral after the motherfucker somehow lived to be 100 (LITERALLY).

For those unaware, Thurmond was one of the two senators from SC in the fucking 19 goddamn 50s up until 2003 when he finally croaked despite the daily injections of baby blood serum. His most famous moment in his career (one of them anyway) was vehemently opposing the civil rights bill and filibustered for 24 fucking hours trying to stop its passage. INSANELY RACIST. Dude was born in fucking 1901. He lived through WWI as a teenager and WWII as a full ass adult. Then he opposed rights for blacks which he had always been able to oppress for his entire life. He was in his 50s and 60s (!!!) when the fight for civil rights fully erupted. He saw the rise of Malcolm X and MLK Jr., their assassinations, the rise and fall (!!!) of the USSR. The rise of the US empire after the destruction of the pacific and European nations. He lived his entire life as a dog and a champion of capital. It’s most vile figurehead who not only supported subjugation abroad but also at home.

And Joe Biden eulogized this absolute demonic piece of human dogshit. I seriously cannot describe how big of a piece you have to be to even speak to a man like Thurmond, a living relic of virulent racism and a deeply held conviction that white people like himself are truly superior, much less be friendly enough to eulogize him and defend his legacy.

They don’t call Biden “Jim Crow Joe” for no good reason.

He’s such a piece of fucking shit.

Massive tangent there, but fuck Biden, seriously.

“If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black”

“The Ukrainian Nazi SS divisions were defending themselves and their culture, their religion from the invaders like the Jews who took to communism because they were poor and jealous and wanted to legally have the wealth of the non-Jewish Ukrainians. You know people get caught up in the race science, but if you ignore that part, the Jews were still bad because they were poor and they wanted to steal wealth! Maybe the Germans and Nazi Ukrainians went too far, but can you blame them! Look at history you tankie! The Russians and Jewish communists did the same to the more “Aryan” types!”

You gotta smash up the obvious antisemitism and repackage it with more contemporary divisions. And toss in some “feels vaguely true” lies to the Americans (mostly, but westerners generally). Few people will openly state they “hate Jews” now days or that they equate Jews with Communism (probably few even know of the history of this equivalency based on how Jordan Peterson has been saying it, in slightly different wording, for like a decade now), but if you tell them some ethnic group is poor and wants their jobs? Well, suddenly border detentions, torture, and even some murder becomes easier to swallow. Different packaging for the same product… liberals love optics and they love defending fascism. Give them a shiny box to place all their terrible ideology in so they can pretend it’s justified and they’ll be plenty happy. I mean, just look at the fucking world.